News – "I am not here for political reasons. I'm not a politician. ... I'm not running for the Oval Office. I've been running for Jesus for a long, long time and I'm not tired yet," he said to laughter and cheers.
TimALoftis: The link for this story has been redirected to the original source story. Please avoid breaking the middleman rule.
2008-04-27 21:13:53
America is a nation, which is in essence a group of people. If you consider that an Earthly treasure, so be it. I do not, no more than Israel, which the Old Testament specifically says to pray for.
To observe the wrongdoing is NOT passing judgement. To call for punishment on the transgressor IS. Now just who is the judgemental one?
tkyrchncs
>>America is a nation, which is in essence.... To call for punishment on the transgressor IS. Now just who is the judgemental one?
IF you'd listen to the whole sermon, you'd understand that he's condemning the GOVERNMENT FOR ITS POLICIES resulting in pain, suffering, & death of innocents - Americans, Native Americans, Japanese Americans, even poor White Americans - not to mention the millions around the world who have been hurt by our policies.
His condemnation that's so blatantly quoted out of context is not of the people of this country; it's a condemnation of the gov't that has actively and passively caused pain & suffering of millions.
We are a government of the people by the people for the people. The government is not America, it is merely an organ of the people. You will be unable to give me a context that I will agree qualifies damning the nation.
So you've agreed with 100% of what this GOVERNMENT did? You agreed with:
- slavery,
- attempted genocide & breaking of every treaty w/Native Americans,
- the internment of Japanese Americans,
- the support of the apartheid S. African gov't,
- the turning away of Jewish refugees during WW-II,
- the support of despots like Augusto Pinochet, Manuel Noriega, Sadam Hussein,
- the selling of weapons to Iran while it's in a war with our ally Iraq,
- the overthrowing of the Iranian Prime Minister,
- segregation
- racism
- indefinite detention of US citizens
- torture.....???
I seriously doubt you approve of any of this, but if so, you are part of the problem & part of the reason why America must be called to atone for its sins.
NOBODY OF ANY PERSUASION WHATSOEVER agrees with everything our government has done, or does now. That does not justify a request or demand of God to curse our nation from any Christian. Nothing does. We are permitted by our Savior to pray for our tormentors, and for deliverance from them, and THAT IS ALL. Cursing anyone is or any group is direct defiance of the commandments and example our Lord. His own words on this are plain and simple and do not admit any interpretation to suit your race, ethnicity etc etc.
He's a preacher. He was NOT asking for God to condemn America. He was saying that God WILL damn America for its atrocities.
For you to so adamantly CONDEMN a man for his condemnation of the US's actions is a bit ludicrous. Preachers point out the sins in themselves & around them. They try to get their parishioners to repent or work to correct those mistakes.
His sermon was saying a couple of things:
1) The US HAS reaped the fruits of its labors for its past atrocities
2) The US WILL be damned if we don't correct its path.
I specifically deny condemning him and defy you to point out in any post here or anywhere else where I have done so. You will find none, because I do not condemn him.
>>I specifically deny condemning him and defy you to point out in any post here or anywhere else where I have done so. You will find none, because I do not condemn him.
I've read through a number of your posts in this thread. While I haven't seen you directly condemn him, your very words, calling him a blasphemer, are in themselves a condemnation.
I will admit that this is just 1 interpretation, but your denouncing his words - his condemnation of the sins of this nation - are a condemnation, along with your refusal to listen to anything else he says:
"He is to me the perfect example of a person who has spoken so objectionably that I cannot hear anything else he has to say, no matter how right, generous, forgiving, whatever."
http://news.propeller.com/story/2008/04/27/rev-...
You don't think real estate is an earthly treasure? That seems like a rationalization of epic proportions considering you brought Israel of all places in to the discussion.
Real estate and political power are earthly issues. Period.
A nation is not real estate. Israel was a nation when in bondage in Egypt, before it came to the Holy Land. I point out only that there are passages in the Bible that instruct the people to pray for a nation, and that a nation is NOT a place, but a people. It is no rationalization at all.
Rev. Wright did not ask god to damn a nation he asked God to damn America, which is real estate.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/america
You can claim America is a nation but it is just as arrogant as you claiming others who do not see it your way are deficient. So, try to change the Merriam Webster online dictionary. LOL
Right, and the Jews couldn't let go of not having real estate to call their own for nearly 2000 years. Again, can we DROP the rationalization?
Nope. Land is just land, and buildings just buildings. These things do NOT constitute a nation. A land devoid of people cannot be a nation, but a people with no specific land can be a nation. A nation is the PEOPLE. This is true and you know it, so can we just drop your sophistry?
Uh, your BS flies in the face of the very book you claim as your sacred text. When Israel was destroyed, there was no Israel, there were Jews, but no Israel.
If America was destroyed tomorrow, there would be no Americans, because the political entity that is America would no longer exist. Learn the difference between ethnicity, which is what The Law created for the Jews, and nationality.
The Mongols became a nation with no land. There have also been migratory North American nations and African nations. Back down. It has nothing to do with Israel or Jews, they were just an example of a sometime nation with no land. The diaspora destroyed them as a nation. If we are destroyed as a PEOPLE, then our nation is destroyed, but we could still be a nation if every city of 500,000 or more in the country were simultaneously destroyed, as long as we remain a people.
tkychnos, Not so, only in a white church might this apply, not in a black church. So, the Rev. Wright was right. You do see that type of style of preaching as deficient, right? So, different is deficient. If you perceive that to be true, then indeed, you attack the black churches who do not agree with you. I personally was not offended by the remark, does that make it inexcusable for me? I call myself a Christian, so, am I deficient compared to you? Do you really think you can separate the love of God from me? If you are black, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for attacking those blacks who disagree with you. I am white, and frankly, I am not impressed. Your comments are unloving and divisive.
So now Wright gets not only to tell me how I feel, he even gets to define the terms? Hogwash. Different is just different. If I want to say better, that is what I will say, and if I want to say worse, that is what I will say, and if I want to tell a fellow Christian that his behavior does not follow the EXPLICIT teachings of Christ I will do so, and the person's race or gender or national origin or sexual preference or blah blah blah is a matter of great indifference to the entire issue. To say "God Damn America" is unChristian and unpatriotic and wrong and NO CONTEXT IS GONNA CHANGE THAT. Being black or Japanese or a woman or a gay or anything else does not excuse it.
My guess is Wright doesn't even know who you are. You can say different is just different, but it doesn't make it so. You also can be belligerent and tell me childishly what you can and cannot do, but if I were an unbeliever, why would I want to follow Christ when you behave thusly? Your comment that "God Damn America is unChristian" is nothing more than making an idol out of America. God is the only one with authority to damn anything. So we know you place America and patriotism above God and practice idolatry, by your own words. Your last sentence just smacks of bigotry. How about that, a black that is a bigot.
My guess is Wright doesn't even know who you are. You can say different is just different, but it doesn't make it so. You also can be belligerent and tell me childishly what you can and cannot do, but if I were an unbeliever, why would I want to follow Christ when you behave thusly? Your comment that "God Damn America is unChristian" is nothing more than making an idol out of America. God is the only one with authority to damn anything. So we know you place America and patriotism above God and practice idolatry, by your own words. Your last sentence just smacks of bigotry. How about that, a black that is a bigot.
Wright can say that people see different as deficient, but that does not make it so. My point is that I say exactly what I mean, and there are no implications. If I say "different" then I mean "not the same as" and no value judgement is stated or implied. I do not use the word "different" interchangeably with "deficient". If I mean "deficient", I will say so directly. The words mean what they mean, not what you or anyone else might think I mean based on your own prejudices. I have already stated in a previous post that I regard his theology as BOTH different and deficient if he claims simultaneously that it is Christian and allows him to damn any person or group.
But your actions and comments all smack of bigotry, man. Whether you want to admit that or not, that is exactly how I perceive you, a bigot. That you will say "his theology is both different and deficient.... damn a person or group" smack of being judgmental and bigotry. On the one hand you say that a Christian is to love his enemies, yet, you make an enemy out of Wright by your judgment of him. And is judging him loving? Saying he is unAmerican loving? He makes an observation about America and you think that is unloving, so what is the difference between you two. According to your own standards you have related to me, both of you are unloving. Sir, the real reason you won't let it rest and leave the man at peace is that your politics wants a Republican or Hillary in the White House. The truth is Wright is not running for President, so it doesn't make a tinkers dam what he believes in the over all scheme of things.
These are YOUR words. I make no enemy of anyone. I do not judge him or anyone (lately). I point out the simple words or our Savior and how he is disobedient. This is an act of love. If it is impossible for you to see how damning a nation, any nation, violates Jesus' commands, I cannot help you. I have not called him unAmerican, or identified him as an enemy (your words again, not mine). It matters what Wright says because of his former position as pastor of a large church, and because of his present notoriety, which unfortunately for everyone garners him speaking engagements, including the largest sit-down dinner in America. In other words because of his power to lead, or mislead. I am a life-long Democrat, and I am, like Bill, proud that my party's front runners are a Black man and a woman. I have said repeatedly that though I have a slight preference for Hill, I will be proud to vote for Obama if he gets the party nod. This has NOTHING to do with Wright.
"Try listening to the entire sermon, THEN opine."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Much like television, after about 90 seconds of his classless, taste-free, lunatic exercise in low intelligence, I clicked him off.
Yes, saittienne, not surprising, but had you listened you would have learned that it is people like you who proves his point. You see Wright as being different, therefore deficient somehow because he is not like you. That in turn makes your attack upon him racist in nature. So, why do you want to attack the black churches in our society. Is it because they are different and you don't understand them? Why come on here and comment if you can't stay on task and the article? What does your comments say about how low intelligent your really are? And how classless you are to boot?
What a house of cards. You go from a straight-forward criticism of this ranting and off-putting STYLE to a personal accusation of racism to accusation of attack on black churches (?) to personal attack on the commentator's intelligence. You seem to take disagreement for a personal affront and generalize it to racism in your mind pretty easily. Victim mentality? Though Saint Steve and I disagree about a lot of things, he is no racist, and highly intelligent.
AIR,
Why should he?
If others had heard about Ike's "military industrial complex" speech in the context of ideology that is present today where others had spun it out of context, they would have declared that Ike was a communist sympathizer and was criticizing American Capitalism. DKL doesn't want to hear it and use reasonable critique. He has already made up his mind long before Rev. Wright made his sermon.
He never cursed America. Don't you understand progressive revelation and black systematic theology? "inappropriate regardless" is your opinion, and you are wrong. As a prophetic preacher, he was right on target. But again, so what if he did say it? You mad? Did it hurt your feelings? Do you think we ought to ask God to bless America when we enslave people, oppress them because of their race, or when our Government kills the innocent? Poor baby, his god, America, has been attacked.
So now America has to learn Black Systmatic Theology??
I'm wondering if John McCain will win more electoral votes than Reagan in '84.
Yes, Locky, if you are going to falsely accuse someone, you should understand the context from which your false accusations come. You evidently, by your remarks, want to attack the black church and it's representative, in this case, Rev. Wright, because you do not understand their views. You do indeed think that difference is deficient.
This article is not about McCain or Obama, it is about your hatred for the black church, your bigotry for attacking Wright, and the black community and it's churches. Please keep spouting your hatred because all of America will see through your hatred, and it will backfire on you.
Let's all sing our closing hymn "G-d Damn America" number 666 in your hymnals.
Oh, Locky12, aren't we the little hate mongering fundamentalist Christian who understands who and what 666 is? I was wondering how long it would be before someone like you associated Wright with the anti-Christ. Next, you will transfer that to Obama LOL
Your hatred for the black church is really showing through here, Locky. So, you do think difference is deficient. That article is not about one of Wright's sermons from 20 years ago, it was about people like you who think that being different is a form of deficiency. Another words, it is all about your bigotry and attack upon the black church. Now you have accused them of being the anti-Christ.
Our Lord and Savior, that's right, the one Wright claims and the one I claim, commands us to love one another, as He loved us. This is the second of the only two commandments He gave us. Please, you or anyone else explain to me how cursing any nation or person fulfills this commandment or the first, which is to love God with our entirety. I find his speech and arrogant demeanor both to be counterproductive to worship, unlikely to evangelize, and lacking humility before our God. Jesus told us to pray for understanding of God's will, His generosity, His forgiveness, and His deliverance. Ill-wishing is unChristian.
Judge not unless you be judged is also in the same Bible. So, you are saying the Rev. Wright's statements do not hold up to your standards. So, they are deficient? So, who are you to judge? Jeremiah, who obviously preaches from a black liberation theology, sees the kingdom as now, and does not ask God to wait until heaven or hell. Asking God to damn America is equivalent of asking God to judge America, refine it, put it to the furnace or fire. All rhetoric asking God to come to our rescue and decide for us. So, do you think you ought to ask God to bless America for our involvement in slavery, bigotry, or innocent deaths? What is your response to how you should ask God to address such? Is it, please bless the killers, enslavers, and bigots, God?
The same bible also says to not take the Lord's name in vain and that ALL men are created in God's image and to love thy neighbor...even whitey.
my, my, devilkey, who took the Lord's name in vain? If you put what the Rev. said in his sermon he used God as the subject and damn as the verb. He did not use Goddam as a noun. Yes, what does all men are created in God's image mean to you? And the Rev. Wright does love even whitey. He said so on Moyers and has a life long history of doing so. He lives in a community they tell me that is 97% white. Hmmmm. What are you talking about? Are you too attacking black churches?
What is your response to how you should ask God to address such? Is it, please bless the killers, enslavers, and bigots, God?
Precisely. Jeremiah was a Hebrew operating under Old Testament morality. Jesus calls us to a higher standard than "an eye for an eye". And that standard commands us to LOVE our enemies. If you wish to operate below that standard, as Wright clearly does, then go ahead, but do not say your Christian brother did not point out your error.
"What is your response to how you should ask God to address such?"
You pray for God to show them his love and the err of their ways. You ask God to forgive them, for they too are sinners and have not been shown his light.
You do not condemn or damn them. You do not ask God to smite them. As this will only bring suffering upon you too.
That may be your way and my way, but it is not necessarily the BLT way. So, in effect, your way is better, right? So where is your forgiveness of Jeremiah Wright and your prayers for him? I see nothing but judgment and condemnation coming out of your hyppocritical mouth. You want the voters to smite Obama for associating with Wright, the man you judge as deficient because he doesn't believe as you do. How quaint. LOL What a damn hyppocrite you are tanglang.
Jesus also said "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and unto God what is Gods". Yes, I agree with you that we are called to love our enemies, but in black liberation theology, they don't view it in exactly the same way. They believe the kingdom is now, not later, and they believe that Christ acts now on their behalf, not later. He didn't ask God to damn our nation, but he did ask him to damn or judge the unjust of our land. Another words, in his theology, right or wrong, agreeable or unagreeable with your theology, he feels he was doing the right thing. You practice your own religion. I practice one similar, but where is asking God to bless Jeremiah Wright if you believe as you say? You continually condemn Rev. Wright because of his beliefs. Where is all that love your enemies you preach? I believe it is lost in trying to keep anyone from voting for Obama at all costs, and I think that is hyppocritical.
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newbie0420: "Just like if I filled this entire post preaching "Change", "Hope' and "Love" and finished it with "all minorities must die" you'd forget all the previous things I said about love, hope and change and concentrate on the "all minorites must die" part."
Unless it was preceded by: "and we must never say or even think that"