News – Under increasing pressure from Europe and elsewhere, the Chinese government announced Friday that it would meet with envoys of the Dalai Lama, an unexpected shift that comes as Tibetan unrest in western China has threatened to cast a pall over the Olympic Games in August.
hey skeek...I was sitting here, sipping a Margarita, and just for ******s and giggles I Googled "a history of slavery in China". Dude, get a grip. We Americans are pikers compared to China.
"Slavery has a history dating back to the Shang dynasty in China (18th -12th century BC). About 5% of China's population was enslaved. The way they were generated there in China was the same everywhere else slavery had reached. With slave raiding, sale of insolvent debtors and capture in war. In China the selling and buying of women and children was allowed to repay debts. China didn't actually develop into a slave society but slavery moved on to other places such as Korea, India, and Asia. Slaves were used in Mesoamerica as porters in the absence of animals. And some were eaten by the social elite. Then on to England, Scandinavia, Russia, and Islamic societies, slavery traveled.
And the there's this, examples of salvery in China TODAY.
http://granitestudio.blogspot.com/2007/06/slave...
And I found more describing the Chinese people selling their countrymen all over the world! Take a few hours to read it all and get back to me!
You can't be serious. You are citing examples of slavery in China from the 18th century BC? And 5% of the population at that?
Oldgringo, the ancient Greeks only first developed democracy as a political theory well after that, in about the 4th century BC. The fact is, oldgrino, that in the 18th century BC, slavery was the standard in most so-called civilisations of that time. Is this what you call intellectual integrity?
Please, keep in mind too, that your country was built on slavery just a few short centuries ago. It will help with maintaining historical and chronological perspective.
As for your link to an anonymous blogspot, the story refers to unscrupulous labour agents and does not cite this as government policy. It makes mention of the corruption of civilian authorities turning a blind eye but again, it does not cite this as government policy. You do understand what is meant by government policy don't you? Slavery was government policy under the Dalai Lamas.
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85)
Why they need to pretend...it's just a spin
They should pack out of Tibet as soon as possible
Some facts you should know.
1. Tibet has been part of China for 800 years.
2. China has never relinquished sovereignty of Tibet.
3. Tibetans lived as slaves under the Dalai Lamas.
4. The Dalai Lama is on the CIA payroll. Google it.
5. Pro-Tibetan Groups are also CIA funded, eg. Reporters Without Borders.
6. China has always been open to talks with the Dalai Lama.
Here's an example.
Wednesday, December 06, 2000
China still 'ready' for talks with Dalai Lama
BEIJING, DEC.5. China today said its channels of communication with the Dalai Lama remained open but refused to make any concession for restarting negotiations to end the Tibet impasse.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2000/12/06/stories/03...
If you are so sincere and earnest about returning land to its rightful owners perhaps you should set the example and pack up out of the stolen land you live in - the United States of America.
Didn't think so.
I was in Tibet in 1987. Part of Chinas openness to talking with Tibetans includes clubbing and beating peaceful protesters into unconsciousness.
I believe your countrymen, your white, slave-owning founding fathers, did far worse to the indigenous population of your country in their efforts to establish "independence." Perhaps however that is too much in the past for you and therefore irrelevant as some comments have pointed out on these boards from time to time; despite the fact that Tibet was already part of China hundreds of years before your country was even discovered much less birthed as a nation.
More recently, I also read that peaceful Tibetan protesters were clubbed by New York City policemen outside the UN only last month. Whether they were clubbed into unconsciousness, I'm not altogether sure. I can't vouch for the sources credibility either; they are blogspots.
I also read recently that the policemen involved in the shooting case of an unarmed black man, shot on his wedding day, will not be sentenced. And then of course, there's always Iraq and Afghanistan, wars of highly dubious justifications.
This is just some of the evidence of your own nation's, and peoples', bared-faced hypocrisy.
You also failed to address the other points I have raised.
1. The slave system of Tibet under the Dalai Lamas. Is this preferable to the clubbings you claim to be an authority on because you visited Tibet in 1987? I see you make no claims to having witnessed them.
2. The Dalai Lama as an agent for the CIA. This information is easily found and has not been denied. Shouldn't you be asking yourself why, given the CIA's nefarious involvements around the world with its destructive and unsolicited interferences?
3. Your government's sponsorship of protesters, primarily Reporters Without Borders, that have sought to disrupt the Olympic Torch relay, most vocally and melodramatically in those countries that are the most interested in undermining China's emerging power - Britain, France, Japan, and of course, the United States of America.
I find the lack of curiosity in such facts unsurprising.
"I believe your countrymen, your white, slave-owning founding fathers, did far worse to the indigenous population of your country in their efforts to establish "independence."
Great sleight of hand, skeek. I've noticed that most of your time on propeller is spent defending China's policies , no matter what they may be. Your simplistic "counter-punches" pretty much label you for what you are, a shill for China.
"I also read recently that the policemen involved in the shooting case of an unarmed black man, shot on his wedding day, will not be sentenced. And then of course, there's always Iraq and Afghanistan, wars of highly dubious justifications."
Another good dodge. Completely off topic. I find your lack of intellectual integrity unsurprising.
Calling me a shill for China reveals or explains nothing, just as I could call you and most of your patriots brainwashed simpletons, even though I would have agreement from many others out here in the world.
I understand China far better than you do oldgringo. I have been there many times, and although I once thought as you do, I have realised that my views on China had been the product of indoctrination, as are yours.
I defend China because your country and your fellow indoctrinated are relentless in your attacks on it. I understand why your country does this. It is threatened by it and fears losing what control it has in every manner in this world to it. You, and many other Americans, simple follow along without question because these are the things you have been taught to believe -- you are indoctrinated.
Therefore to accuse me of lacking intellectual integrity is ludicrous. I am far more honest, questioning and critical with my intellect than you are, oldgringo.
As for what you call a dodge is an example of your country's hypocrisies. I raised the recent news of the lack of sentencing of police who shot an unarmed black man, around 50 times I might add, because this is what we in the world see of America. It's hypocrisy. This was recent, but small and seemingly insignificant in comparison to so many of your country's greatest travesties. Yet, you and your country have the gall to wag your finger in the face of every country and every person in this world that chooses to live differently and dictate to them how they should behave or face the consequences. If you want China to give up Tibet, then set the example. Give up New Mexico. You stole it anyway.
And still the silence over the points I've raised remains.
Slavery under the Dalai Lamas.
The Dalai Lama funded by the CIA.
The US government funding of free-Tibet protest groups.
Come on, oldgrino, show me your intellectual integrity now. Give me an example of what you call 'honesty.'
The fact that this thread is almost a day old and has only had 9 comments, 6 of them mine, shows quite clearly just how much intellectual integrity you and your countrymen are in truth really prepared to apply to the China/Tibet issue. Not much at all.
"I understand China far better than you do oldgringo. I have been there many times, and although I once thought as you do, I have realised that my views on China had been the product of indoctrination, as are yours."
I'm not impressed. I've been going to China regularly for about 20 years, now. I've seen the Chinese justice system at work. I've also read and heard the horror stories of Chinese justice, as you surely have, that abound in your "innocent" China.You want to talk about travesties of justice! You may think the US is worse, but I know better.
I had never said China was innocent. What I'm saying is it is being vilified and demonised by a hypocrite, the USA, pursuing its own unstated ambitions. In other words, your country is using this, amongst others, as strategies to destroy a perceived competitor and therefore a probable threat in its pursuit of global dominance. It is a standard ploy that your country has used repeatedly against Russia, Communism, the Middle East, Islam, and now China. Your country's agenda is all too transparent when it does not have an enemy, whether real or imaginary -- mostly a little of the former and a lot of the latter -- in order to promote itself as the shining pillar of goodness and virtue while advancing its own imperial agenda. I hope that's clear enough. Could your 20 year history of sojourns to China also be part of that crusade and explain your hardened resolve towards a people and nation that have been nothing but consistently threatened and indirectly attacked by your own?
This is nothing new. I don't just mean by the United States. Every country, given the opportunity, will do this at this juncture in history. Some will do worse and I'd bet a few others will do a bit better. But every country will do this if in a position that the US is in. The only really new thing about the United States in history was the fact that it didn't turn its war machine on Europe and Asia after World War II and that's really not all that new. As Rome claimed to bring civilization to the world, so the United States is claiming to bring democracy while pursuing its own agenda which is fairly imperialistic in nature. I'd like nothing more then to de-construct the "empire" myself. Not the United States. Just the empire. Will it happen? Not unless something makes it happen. That something could take another century to really happen. It could be China in about twenty years though.
So you don't misunderstand the key word in my statement is "claim" with regards to bringing democracy. It can be shouted from the hilltops but it won't be true.
More than an opportunity to inflame and aggravate a soft spot for China, I believe Tibet also has strategic value. It rests between China and India. The US would do its best to always maintain a divide between these two emerging powers. This is why it feeds nuclear technology to India, which has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Tibet is also in the Himalayas which is the source of Asia's two great rivers -- the Yangtze in China and the Gandes in India; vital water sources for both nations. As the next resource scarcity after oil will be water, Tibet is America's opportunity to keep these two nations on a short leash. The Dalai Lama is the key to this. In this light, the plot not only thickens but darkens as well. Should I say hypocrisy again?
1. "Slavery under the Dalai Lamas"
"Tenzin Gyatso was born in 1935. He was taken from his parents to an ancient Buddhist monastery in Tibet where he was groomed for the role of Dalai Lama, the political and spiritual leader of Tibet. In 1950, the Chinese government invaded Tibet. Only 15 years old, the Dalai Lama and his aides tried to cooperate with the Communist invaders, but brutal acts of repression forced him to flee to Dharamsala, India, in 1959. He has lived in exile ever since."
...still looking for credible evidence to back up your assertions...seems most of the stories come from China and claim it is his "religion" that places people into slavery. Cool stuff, though.
It seems you haven't been looking very hard. Here's something from the credible British newspaper, The Guardian. This must be what your intellectual integrity calls "coming from China."
"Slavery existed in Tibet into the 1950s. Five percent of the population constituted the ruling class, among others the secular and spiritual nobility in the monasteries. Ninety percent of the population were serfs and five percent were slaves. The feudal rulers opposed reforms and with the support of the CIA, promoted separatism."
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1288tibet.html
Here's something I found interesting.
This is the Google description for the "tibet slavery wikipedia" search.
History of Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Jump to: navigation, search ...... the Chinese government also abolished slavery and the Tibetan serfdom. ...
en.wikiped... - 198k - Cached - Similar pages
On opening up Wikipedia, however, the phrase "the Chinese government also abolished slavery and the Tibetan serfdom" as clearly stated above, cannot be found. The conclusion is it has been recently removed which raises questions of its own.
I don't doubt you'll find some kind of mileage in that.
If you have a hard copy, home encyclopedia you should also be able to find concrete affirmation that Tibet was indeed a feudal slave system. You may wish to check that your encyclolpedia was not printed and published in Beijing. You could also try your local public library, provided pages and books weren't removed under the Patriot Act.
Wikepedia essentially says the same thing, though not the same numbers are given.
Hypocrisies? Give anyone or any nation enough time and it will become a hypocrite!
Possibly, however in America it appears to be a necessary part of foreign policy. Although with a wishy-washy Brown in Britain, a subservient Merkel in Germany, and Sarkozy, a feisty US sycophant in France, it is echoed without shame in Europe as well.
Do you hear me justifying the crimes of my ancestors? What is your point exactly? Why don't you just say outright that you support oppression and brutalization of others when it serves your ends? Get a grip skeek.
When my country does something that I don't believe in, I don't defend it. Wrong is wrong and patriotism is no excuse for condoning immoral behavior. If you want to be a Stalinist robot, that is your prerogative.
Now here is a question for you. Why is Tibet a threat to China? Are we asked to believe that this tiny nation is a security threat to a nation of one billion people? Under what twisted logic is this being considered? I guess those Tibetans must really be some dangerous hombres with all that praying they do.
You show your ignorance by calling Tibet a "tiny nation." It is not. As I have said, it has been a part of China for more than 800 years. That does not make it a threat. The threat comes from countries, primarily yours or those in your country's service, using both Tibet and Taiwan as opportunities to attack China. I believe I have spelt out the evidence of this clearly enough should you care to read more thoroughly.
Shall I call Hawaii a "tiny nation" and ask you why are you so threatened that you cannot grant it independence?
America has seized on the opportunity of using a disgruntled Dalai Lama, in order to seek to demonise China. The Dalai Lama has allowed this willingly hoping that one day your government will reinstate him as king. He's happily taken paychecks from the CIA while waiting for that day.
Only in America would anyone still use in 2008 such terminology as "Stalinist robot." I suppose you still think there are communists hiding under your bed too. You show your age, your nationality and your inability to keep up with the times in using it.
"...a question like, "When did the Chinese first invade Tibet?" is an oxymoron. The fallacy is comparable to a hypothetical question: "When did Native Americans invade Navajo or Apache tribal lands? " In America, you have Navajo, Cherokee, Choctaw, Sioux, Chippewa, Apache, etc. In Zhong Guo, they have Han, Hui, Mian, Zang, Zhuangâ; about 50 plus ethnicities living on the land called the Middle Kingdom."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200...
Hmmmm, your showing a bigoted side. "Only in America" indeed! Shame on you for generalizing in such a manner, it only shows a shallow intellect! I have friends from multiple nations and I've heard terms similar to that many times, even from the younger generation who were still babies while the USSR existed!
I guess it depends on which circles you move in. I can say with absolute honesty that the only time I hear such terms thrown about in a derisive and insulting manner it has always come from an American. It's not a prejudice; it's an observation.
I speak with a few people from the UK. Some from Sweden. The area I live in has about ten percent Asian population, alot of that from China or Korea. We have a decently sized Arabic population as well. Anti-communism still exists. Its no wonder after the last six decades. Its only to be expected and I doubt it will die out soon. However a populist feeling does exist in the United States at this time and its fairly powerful. I'm waiting to see what happens with health care. If a new policy is implemented I'd like the WHO organization to recompile its results. I'm interested to see if the US will drop from its number one slot in "Quality" or keep it the same and see what happens in fairness.
If Hawaii voted for independence, I would not oppose it. My patriotism is defined by an adherence to the principals of democracy and the rights of self determination and not some ego trip about how big our country is. Obviously you don't feel the same way. I am not buying your assertion that Tibet is fighting for independence only because of outside agitators. Its a seperate and distinct culture for which the Chinese government has shown little to no respect. You can try to spin this all night, but at the end of the day its all bull crap. Your defending oppression and tyranny. Just be honest about it. The crimes of America don't excuse those of China so you are wasting your time pointing out the historical wrongs of my country. I have a lot of gripes with America and don't labor under any delusions about our own perfection. But to say we attack you is silly at best. How? By granting MFN status. By importing billions worth of Chinese products? I'd say you're paranoid and delusional.
I'm defending oppression and tyranny? No I'm defending a nation that I may not agree with but I will defend it if I see it victimised by a hypocritical nation that is itself, the world's primary tyrant. As for your democracy, your last two federal elections exposed exactly how mythical that is in the abstract and how dysfunctional it is in practise. To call me paranoid and delusional is rich when your country euphemistically calls wars of aggression 'pre-emptive' and thinks everybody wants to be like you.
I don't know what the acronym MFN stands for.
You don't buy my assertions of outside influences, why? Because those outside influences happen to be your country? Try this then.
World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A.
Published: October 2, 1998
The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=...
Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak
Michael Backman
May 23, 2007
The government set up in exile in India and, at least until the 1970s, received $US1.7 million a year from the CIA.
The money was to pay for guerilla operations against the Chinese, notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's public stance in support of non-violence, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.
The Dalai Lama himself was on the CIA's payroll from the late 1950s until 1974, reportedly receiving $US15,000 a month ($US180,000 a year).
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/behind-d...
The primary protest group at the relay has been Reporters Without Border. The name suggests a progressive, possibly left-wing group of independent journalists, right? Wrong. They're funded by the US government backed NED and the Free Cuba Center, the latter created by US secret services and funded by USAID. In short, the Pro-Tibetan protests are staged and US government funded. This is according to Canadian think tank, Global Research.
http://www.china.org.cn/china/Lhasa_Unrest/2008...
If the CIA and other such nefarious government groups, designed to sabotage and subvert, are able to exploit terrorist militia in various parts of the world, what makes you think you or any homegrown liberal thinker be any tougher a nut to crack and use for other agendas?
I am not the United States, and yes, you are defending tyranny and oppression. You can't weasel your way out of this one. The wrongs of America don't justify the wrongs of China in Tibet. Just be honest. I know its a stretch for you. You defend tyranny and oppression because your love of country exceeds your love of principle. There can be no other explanation.
I don't support pre-emptive war. Why do you keep evading the point? MFN is most favored nation. Now skeek, get some sleep. You're beginning to annoy me. I suspect you are an agent of China. You're paid to fulfill a propaganda function. I understand. Everyone has to eat and pay bills. But if you don't mind a little advice. You're wasting your time. You can't polish a turd. China invaded Tibet in 1951. They signed an agreement that claimed to respect the cultural integrity of Tibet and proceeded to violate it. This, and not the CIA is what started the Tibetan rebellion. Now you need your rest and your meds. Good Night.
Forever thinking from an American point of view, Hanyman? Haven't you ever heard of time zones? Not everything in this world runs on America's time. You have summed up precisely what I'm trying to point out here -- USA-centricity. Everything revolves around you.
I know China has done many wrongs. I believe your country has done far more and continues to do so without remorse except for its own losses and pains. I also believe many of those 'wrongs' you believe China has done are also fabricated or greatly exaggerated, most especially by your country. My apologies if this 'annoys' you.
And I am most definitely not paid to fulfill a propaganda function. I feel passionately about what I write here because, being a Westerner, I once thought like you but have come to understand through experience the Chinese point of view, and I have found it makes a lot of sense. Far more sense than the simplistic indoctrination of China Bad, America Good. That's typical American bullsh*t.
As opposed to what? Who doesn't have a point of view? I must remind you again, I am not the USA. What amuses me, however, is that you have wasted so much of your time and effort arguing with me. In the end, my opinion is of little consequence. USA centricity? I suppose you are just swimming in a sea of non-aligned humanity. Your opinions free from bias? Save it for the intellectually stunted. Objectivity doesn't exist within the human species. Skeek, you are amateur hour to me.
Now for time zones. Since you are such an expert. What is the reason for leap year? How long is an actual year in excess of 365 days. What is the Prime Meridian? why is it straight, and why is the international date line staggered? I have crawled all over this globe and visited many time zones. For example, Baghdad is in the same one as Moscow. Bangkok is 16 hours ahead of mine, but they don't utilize daylights savings time so half the year they are only 15 hours different but still 16 zones removes.
You claim to be a westerner who has embraced the wisdom of China. Would you care to elaborate on this? Which part? All. Communism? Maoism? Buddhism? Confucianism? Capitalism? There is no ism to which I would give my total allegiance. You have gone to great lengths to defend tyranny and oppression but are unwilling to be frank about your positions. Instead of defending their purpose, you attempt to misdirect me with allegations that America has done so also or done so more without justifying their use in China. I am sorry, but I won't and can't be distracted by such infantile tactics. You can't defend Chinas actions in Tibet without being honest and just saying that you want China to win regardless of whether they are right or not. At least then I could have a modicum of respect for your position. Your tactics aren't working, okay. We can post a thousand more times and the conclusion won't change. Admit you are a sinophile and the move on.
Sinophile? Of course. I wasn't aware that it should be something I should have to confess to or that it should also be a source of shame. In this context, however, it doesn't surprise me in the least, given the high level of vilification of China by America or the amount of hatred spewed out on these threads towards China by otherwise well-meaning Americans who can't think critically or freely for themselves.
Now if you can admit to your sinophobia we can call it even.
I am neither sinophile nor sinophobic. I have no blind love for my country or any other. That is the difference between you and me. As for spewing. Plenty of people in this forum spew contempt for our own government or haven't you noticed? There is far more conspicuous dissent in this country than in China. We have a free press and are allowed to criticize our country without fear of imprisonment. Last I checked, Chinese citizens enjoyed no such freedom. So please be a man about this and confess your love of tyranny and oppression outright rather than using "you do it worse or you do it too". That is all your arguments add up to.
To cast me in a role I have denied and argued with facts against is your choice. Stick with what you know. I'm sure you must feel safer that way.
Hanyman,
you wrote, "If Hawaii voted for independence, I would not oppose it."
What if this were financed by an intelligence agency of another country that tries to put their payee as head and does so by causing riots and wounding and killing innocent Americans? Will you say yes to that?
What if it were instigated by extra terrestrials using mind control beams bounce off the moon at an acute angle? Let's keep the hypotheticals to a minimum. I don't buy the notion that Tibet's push for independence was cause by outside agitators. Its just pure bullying and jack booted thuggery. Might makes right. Nothing more.
You don't buy it yet the facts are there. I've posted links above to verify them.
Hanyman,
You've evaded a direct answer, yet your reply says it - you can't say yes to the question. the points I raised are factual regarding Tibet, the actual situation in question. I used the phrase 'what if' not because I like to make hypotheticals, but just in response to your hypothetical 'if Hawaii ...' What you say shows the lack of basis. Your mentioning of ET is just to hide this by muddying the water.
The question answers itself. I wouldn't support outside influence as this would be contrary to the principle of self determination. I just don't accept that outside manipulation is the source of unrest in Tibet. Nice try.
The Dalai Lama himself admits to it but you deny it because it doesn't fit your cosy belief system. It is written up everywhere from Wikipedia to your mainstream press, but no, Hanyman doesn't "buy it." How pompous and elitist. You pick and choose truth to suit your own pre-determined biases, Hanyman. What you already believe to be "the truth." How convenient that must be for you.
From the New York Times link I posted above.
"The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency... "
This is willful blindness and deliberate, conscious ignorance on your part, Hanyman. Can you honestly dig your head any deeper into the sand?
What do you honestly think the CIA does? Play Santa Claus to America's favourite charities? And then say, "Go ahead kiddies, spend it on anything you like!"?